RNID to supply Nokia 9210’s from ebay to Deaf customers.
An article in The Register today explains that Vodafone is now buying secondhand Nokia 9210’s on eBay to sell to D/deaf customers using the service provided in association with the RNID.
Below taken from Register
Vodafone UK is hunting eBay for obsolete handsets that support its Textphone service for the deaf.
British telephone companies are required to provide services for deaf customers, who generally use a keyboard to type text messages. Text- and instant messaging have mitigated the need to an extent, but seeing every key typed is a better communication experience, according to the RNID (Royal National Institute for Deaf people).
Vodafone’s service uses software provided by the RNID running on Nokia’s Communicator 9210. The problem is that Nokia doesn’t make the 9210 any more. And while rival networks use two-device solutions, Vodafone is forced to source Communicators from anywhere they can, including eBay, until it comes up with something better.
A Vodafone spokeswoman told us: “We buy Communicators secondhand from a variety of sources, including eBay, and clean them up for our customers.”
Why is a mobile phone operator forced to scrounge second hand phones to support a service that was once a flagship.
Why do us deaf people have to use second hand goods?
Why couldn’t global operator with over 200 million customers to ask a manufacturer to design a handset fit for 2007 specifically for the Typetalk service.
The Nokia 9210 would have remained in production had Vodafone offered the service to the deaf community around the world and ordered a sufficient number of handsets to make this viable or cheaper …
In association with the rnid. How much will the mark up be I wonder?
Agree with all your other points … never fails to amaze be how people term progress = non inclusive. Why can’t they simply develop a machine that works for us?
Actually when is Typetalk going to get an overhaul … in the States, people can use their sidekicks from AIM etc, to make relay calls.
All the above just smacks of covering up incompetency in this area.
Shame….shame….on all of you greedy organisation and corporations. They just don’t give a shit.
Nice to see you back blogging, Fin
It’d be better if they actually bothered to develop new software for the newer Nokias such as the 9300 or 9500.. but they probably make hand over fist over buying up old phones and selling as new…
I recall the RNID handing out free machines around the mid 1980s ? they were business machines that were superseded, and given to the RNID free, I had one so did many deaf friends at the time, they worked very well, and we paid nothing for delivery either, I only stopped using it, when my son decided to feed it orange juice… it had a full qwerty keyboard and an LCD display. Bulky via today’s standards but the bees knees when I first saw one…
I never really took to minicoms….I think the gizmo’s are wasted really, they all become obsolete as soon as they hit the street. Deaf people still prefer face to face conversations… and with computers who wants to wander the street with one anyway ? I scrapped the Wi-fi option on my computer, because I was forever buying bloody batteries for it…
When I go outdoors (It’s been known !), I am incommunicado, I never carry a mobile or anything, how pretentious is that anyway, who absolutely NEEDS to be in contact 24 hours a day apart from the PM… ? I’m often driven with an overwhelming desire to insert these gizmo’s up the users backside… as they tend to be pretty unsociable people.
On behalf of RNID, I would like to offer the following comments - because it seems there is, as so often, a lot of misinformation being published:
1) RNID is not involved in any way, shape or form in Vodafone’s eBay exercise as reported by The Register. The title of this page is therefore misleading and plainly WRONG as we have NO involvement in this scheme whatsoever. I found out via the Register, just as all of you.
2) Someone mentioned “markup”: RNID has never charged a penny to any of the operators, nor to deaf people for the use of the 9210(i) software. We offered the software to all operators. For the last few years, only Vodafone has been offering a package based on it to deaf people.
3) On the issue of bothering to develop new software: AT THE SAME TIME as we developed the 9210 software, we started on a parallel development track for a similar, IP based application that could offer real-time text not just on a single device, but would work across a range of handsets and would be able to evolve together with the hardware and networks (something impossible for the 9210 software model - it cannot be ported to other devices). That software is called TalkByText Mobile Edition and has been availbale for years, running on a range of handsets INCLUDING the 9300 and 9500 communicators. However, where the 9210 software was at least supported by one network operator, TalkByText remains unsupported by all providers.
4) Without support from the networks themselves, a proper mobile textphone solution does not work. Interconnect with TextDirect is needed, as well as protocol support for real-time text and functional support for such things as looking up IP addressed for a given phone number, without which incoming calls cannot be supported. TalkByText Mobile has been made available FOR FREE to deaf people in absence of any mobile networks having an offering available, but without their support we cannot make incoming calls function properly on their networks.
5) Finally, a key barrier in having wider access to mobile textphones is caused by the specific legal and regulatory environment in the UK and the EU. I will not bore you with the details, but the RNID responses (and those of other deaf organisations) to a range of consultations by Ofcom and the EU have highlighted these issues for many years and we continue to lobby and campaign for them to be addressed. For those interested, these responses and other related policy documents are available from our website.
Guido
Guido Gybels
Director of New Technologies, RNID
Guido>On behalf of RNID, I would like to offer the Guido>following comments - because it seems there is, as Guido>so often, a lot of misinformation being published:
Yes and RNID is guilty of that too!!
As one person puts it from a Deaf-uk-tec forum
we live in a capitalist world. Nokia stopped making the
9210 because it was an old model. Vodafone still gets demand for the
9210 by…. you guessed it! deaf people! If there was no demand for
the 9210, then Vodafone wouldn’t be scrounging around for replacement models.
My understanding that Nokia made the 9210 aimed at the business people nothing to do with deaf how ever RNID developed the software to which the Nokia was out of our price range for rest of us.
What the RNID seem to forget that 2 third of deaf people are unemployed so its no use to rest of us. now the price has dropped and no longer being made vodaphone recognise that there is a demand for it.
How ever RNID have dropped the software so its replaced by talk by text (correct me if I am wrong here) that does not work with the 9210.
If I buy the 9210 off ebay because its within my price range are the RNID refusing to supply the software? If so why?
Guido>RNID has never charged a penny to any of the Guido>operators, nor to deaf people
Guido>for the use of the 9210(i) software. We offered Guido>the software to all operators.
How ever that software been replaced by talkbytext to phones to which its out of our price range! So here we are back to square one again!
Talkbytext mobile is free.. but other talkbytext software RNID is charging us.. why is this?
Does not seem right to me that you don’t charge mobile operators for the software however using talkbytext pc for home or buissness users that you do charge!
Guido>3) On the issue of bothering to develop new Guido>software: AT THE SAME TIME as we developed the Guido>9210 software, we started on a parallel Guido>development track for a similar, IP based Guido>application that could offer real-time text not Guido>just on a single device, but would work across a Guido>range of handsets and would be able to evolve Guido>together
On handsets that beyond our price range! Hence why there is a demand for old nokia!
Typetalk was invented long before all this however your devoloping software that we are not likely to use ie phone its self cost to much.How about integrating the 2 together? Why not talk to these other software companies Such as Skype call mobiles and home phones ..
Why cant we use Skype to talk to typetalk?
Guido>4) Without support from the networks themselves, a Guido>proper mobile textphone solution does not work.
Has this been published on why or how differcult these operators are?
We would like to read this
There are other ip software out there such as firefly also likes of msn ,yahoo and yet we are not able to use typetalk through this!!!
Sorry, reposting as some of the quoted sections got deleted after uploading…
I will make this my last reply on this matter.
1) You said: “My understanding that Nokia made the 9210 aimed at the business people nothing to do with deaf how ever RNID developed the software to which the Nokia was out of our price range for rest of us.”
I am disappointed that you make it sound as if RNID deliberately chose a handset that was too expensive. I have many times in public spoken about the history of the 9210, but in short it comes down to the following:
- As mobile phones became common place, deaf people started to experience barriers in society because those amongst them that rely on real-time text to communicate, were not able to communicate while on the move with the same freedom as hearing people using voice on their mobiles;
- This lead to many calls for suitable mobile textphones, yet the market did not seem to provide for them - leaving deaf people in the cold;
- That is why RNID decided to spend a lot of time and money on developing the 9210 software - so that at least some solution would be available, even if it was not a perfect solution. The 9210 was never seen as the final answer, but it was the only answer that could be delivered at the time;
- Not all handsets can be programmed and certainly cannot be programmed at a low enough level, and do not offer the necessary functionality to support real-time text. This is still the case today, but was much stronger the case when we started work on the 9210. RNID evaluated in-depth the handsets and their programming environment at the time, and unfortunately the 9210 was the only one that offered a sufficiently open and powerful enough programming platform to make the textphone software work.
- So, the choice for the 9210 was purely based on technical possibilities and the desire to provide at least SOME solution, rather than do nothing. RNID was never happy with the fact that it was expensive and indeed lobbied hard so that operators would sell it as cheap as possible to deaf people. Both the initial T-Mobile and the subsequent Vodafone package sold the handset at as attractive as possible rates;
- A major reason for developing TalkByText Mobile was precisely, as I said before, the wish to bring real-time text to a lot MORE handsets, especially CHEAPER ones.
2) You said: “How ever RNID have dropped the software so its replaced by talk by text (correct me if I am wrong here) that does not work with the 9210.”
Strictly technically speaking, you could run TalkByText Mobile on a 9210 (you would need to install a VM on it), but as the 9210 does not support GPRS, you would need to use a dial-up IP connection. That is not very practical, but really besides the point. The 9210 already IS available as mobile textphone, via the 9210 software. TalkByText Mobile was intended to bring real-time text to newer handsets and to a broader range, giving MORE choice to deaf people.
“If I buy the 9210 off ebay because its within my price range are the RNID refusing to supply the software? If so why?”
Because the mobile textphone, as I have explained before and have often said in public, is more than just software. You will need a properly configured SIM, which has special provisioning on it to signal the special configuration needed for the interworking unit to connect to the landline network (so that you can connect to landline textphones and Typetalk, via TextDirect). This in turn requires the network operator to issue such special provisioned SIM. That is why we do not hand out the software: it is only of use in collaboration with a supporting network. You might not like all of this, but there are practical and technical realities - and limitations - to take into account. I am sorry the world is not perfect, but I can assure you that we are trying to positively, step by step, improve things, not make them deliberately worse as has been suggested in a very unfair way.
3) You said: “How ever that software been replaced by talkbytext to phones to which its out of our price range! So here we are back to square one again!”
Well, this is just blatantly untrue. TalkByText Mobile has always been free and still is. It runs on MORE handsets than the previous 9210-only software and most of those handsets are cheaper than the 9210. In fact, TalkByText Mobile even runs on a very simple handset such as the Nokia 6820/6822, which came for free on many contracts.
Of course, real-time text requires a text input mechanism that generates a character for one keypress, so either a physical or virtual full keyboard, which often only comes with slightly more upmarket handsets. But I don’t know why you blame us at RNID for this reality in the market, or indeed for trying to make things a bit better by actually spending our efforts on making these solutions more widely available on more, and cheaper, handsets.
4) You said: “Talkbytext mobile is free.. but other talkbytext software RNID is charging us.. why is this?
Does not seem right to me that you don’t charge mobile operators for the software however using talkbytext pc for home or buissness users that you do charge!”
In reality, we should probably charge all users for ALL these products. But none of these products will ever pay back our investment. We don’t create them to make money (they don’t make money), we create them to step by step improve things by making more solutions and products more widely available and work with the rest of society to address some of the remaining barriers in terms of costs, etc.
TalkByText is a series of solutions that use modern, mainstream technologies such as the Internet to try and lift real-time text out of the 1960s technology niche that they have been stuck in for far too long. TalkByText for Windows makes it simpler for organisations to support deaf people in real-time text and to offer them a more equivalent interaction compared to what hearing people enjoy by offering features similar to what voice phones have been able to do for a long time (but which were not possible to achieve with PSTN textphones). Its Home Edition is in the pipeline and will hopefuly meet the needs of deaf people who are fed up that they are stuck with clumsy oldfashioned textphones while the rest of society has moved on to the Internet. TalkByText Mobile Edition you already know: it tries to lower further the barrier to communicating while on the move for deaf people using text, whereas TalkByText Web Edition makes it simpler for deaf people to have access to real-time text and Typetalk when away from their usual base and for those who only make occasional calls.
All of these solutions have only one goal: to help chip away at the barriers that sadly still exist in the Information Society for deaf and hard of hearing people.
5) You said: “There are other ip software out there such as firefly also likes of msn ,yahoo and yet we are not able to use typetalk through this!!!”
and: “Why not talk to these other software companies Such as Skype call mobiles and home phones ..
Why cant we use Skype to talk to typetalk?”
Typetalk exists only because BT has a legal obligation to provide a voice to text relay service. That legal obligation only applies to the PSTN (the old-style landline phone network). As a result, BT has no obligation to make Typetalk accessible to other networks, such as mobiles or the Internet. In fact, all our current solutions such as TalkByText have to work around this by breaking out from the mobile network and/or the Internet to the PSTN in order to be able to communicate through Typetalk.
RNID has for years been campaigning to make Typetalk accessible in a native way from other networks than the PSTN and to open up new and better ways to communicate in text. However, the reality is that for network operators or major service providers such as the ones you mention, there is neither a legal obligation to do this, nor is there a business case to stimulate them. So, where we do provide (partial) solutions, it is to overcome these gaps in the market and try to bring at least some functionality to deaf people which would otherwise not exist at all.
At the same time, we continue to lobby and campaign to change the legal and other barriers in this domain. Despite what you seem to think, we are on YOUR side.
Finally, every business is perfectly at liberty to develop their own solutions for real-time text, to offer their own relay services or indeed to build and sell mobile textphones. Nobody prevents them from doing so and these organisations have a lot more money and resources at their disposal than we do at RNID. However, you should ask yourself why this does not happen? Apart from a lack of legal obligations, the reality is that for many of them this is not a market that they see as a business opportunity.
Precisely because the market does not deliver in many respects, we make some effort to try and at least in part alleviate these gaps by means of our own R&D. Would you instead prefer us to do nothing?
6) You said: “Has this been published on why or how differcult these operators are? We would like to read this”
As I said already: many of the economic, technical, legal and regulatory issues to do with this are covered in our formal consultation responses:
http://www.ictrnid.org.uk/consultations.html
I have spoken often about these issues in public, at conferences, seminars, lectures. Me and my colleagues continue to lobby and campaign, talking to Ofcom, the UK government, the European Commission. The media have also reported on many of these issues in the past and hopefully continue to do so.
I will not comment further on this, as I just don’t have the time. But it would be best for all of us if we could in future stick to the facts, rather than conjecture.
Guido
Guido Gybels
Director of New Technologies, RNID
Whew! That was insightful regarding the complexity of the situation. Whoever said that technology will set you free! Smack that person on the head. Thanks to Guido for taking his time to respond on this matter. It is a positive thing that someone from RNID is talking to the Joe Public answering some of our questions that have been bumping around for a while. Wonder what will happen to Typetalk when everything goes wireless/IP-based and PSTN become obsolete? Does that mean RNID could potentially lose their golden cash cow?
Is it too much to ask for the consultations paper to be in plain English and in BSL?
What I find mind boggling that at the typetalk centre they read text off a screen and relay it to a hearing person.
I am only using msn for example as we know there are other chat clients why cant they have msn on typetalk pc for example?
They are bound to be running windows pc and I send message and they relay it by phoning the person.. id would have an account so it will be billed to me .
When they ring that person i on a bt line so what are they worried about?
When I was in USA I needed to contact my mum as you know go into a internet café. Open up msn and contact typetalk and give account info etc and they ring my mum…
Unlike other text-based messaging functionality such as SMS, MSN or email, the talk-by-text application is real-time. Each letter appears on the recipient’s display screen as the sender types it so the recipient no longer has to wait for a complete message to be sent.
Why is this important??
Do the typetalk operators speak word for word?
When you think about it not hard for start up company to do this is it .. they would be fitting round what Deaf customer need..!
We should stick to hitting the RNID where it hurts, via access, you’ve been told before they hired PRO’s to counter you, and unless you know your biz they’ll wipe the floor with you and discredit you to boot. As you can read there’s not a lot of respect for the deaf either….
Their info is never clear cut on their site, you always have to dig for every crumb to find, it’s how they work…. You’re deaf, you don’t understand, you misunderstood, unsurprising ! but don’t give them THAT ammo, it justifies the patronization…. Like they said, they aren’t going to post back, we all need to up our game against the RNID.
Mention access issues then listen for the deafening silence, they know they will lose that one… forget the techno approach, 9 out of 10 of us don’t understand it anyway, and the RNID membership is older people who can’t be arsed either…. If there is such a thing as genuine deaf activism time they aimed at the level deaf will easily follow too. Talking over their heads isn’t going to help.
This is why I use a PDA - I use a text message/GPRS friendly contract and fire up MSN when I need real-time conversation. If someone isn’t on MSN at the time, I’d send them a text to get their ass on the computer
It’s not an elegant solution but it works for when I need live communication when standard SMS won’t do.
RNID, a charity proporting to represent 6,7,8,9,10 million people in the UK seems to have amazingly little in the way on this front. I’ve seen a small firm with a fraction of the cash RNID gets makes a whole new computer system. Why can’t RNID be a bit more innovative on this?
I suggest to RNID to review their spending activities and consolidate some efforts into key critical areas. “Soft” projects can be put off until key issues are tackled.
Technology is one area RNID can confidently assert their position because no one else is seen to be doing the R&D in this field within the UK and for the UK telecomms systems. It is a shame that the windfalls from Typetalk (is £9million?) are not ploughed back into the R&D department and afford them more talent, room for innovation and pack the beef to bring deaf-enabled technology to the fore-front in the markets. Guess where that money going….Hi Gerry, I didn’t see you there!!
For what RNID are endeavouring to do on this count, I feel more need to be done, with more intensity, cos I am fed up with piecemeal technology with low life expectancy. I can’t help it but I always have this low expectancy whenever a new piece of technology is announced. Mostly it is same old concept/architecture but with a new skin. How old is the minicom? We have come a long way…ahem! I have yet to come across robust and user-friendly software that can mimic the minicom, via the forums, and I have tried loads. I have reached to the point when I have stopped trying. We are forever exchanging tips, instructions etc - that is simply not on in this day and age when we are seeing APIs generated daily for the like of Facebook and whatnots. Like my school teachers would say “Good work, Anthony, but more effort required”. It is all about the willingness to knock this on the head and putting the money where your mouth is.